Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match (Read 40331 times)
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #57 - 06/15/05 at 17:18:57
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2 Nf4
As I mentioned earlier here I had to pick one out of at least 4 quite different moves. 12...Nf4 is definitely the most forcing and complicated move, but I feel that it is justified considering that one cannot really say that white is better developed at all. Things might get a bit messy, but my analysis seems to indicate that black is fine.

The main alternative was 12...g6, which is certainly quite senisble, too, but on the other hand there is the risk that white might secure a certain space advantage that might offer him more compensation for his sacrificed pawn than he deserves. It's not like the black position really has any problems after 12...g6, but I've decided I'd like some more active play. In the end I simply don't know for sure whether 12...g6 or 12...Nf6 is better.

Lesser alternatives are 12...0-0-0 and 12...b6, about these I have certain suspicions (and some variations that at least look very much like what white is aiming for when playing the BDG). The former comits a bit earlier than necessary to castling queenside and the latter move does weaken the queenside a bit.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Teyko
Full Member
***
Offline


Gambits Dammit

Posts: 247
Location: Scotland
Joined: 10/01/03
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #56 - 06/14/05 at 04:38:12
Post Tools
I am not silent MnB, I just don't have much to say about the games as of now. I was looking into the game patrik was playing against Eric, but as that is now adjourned or 1-0 or whatever it is I don't really have much to contribute.

My days are filled with learning e4 stuff, which I must say is quite a bit, but I am still playing the Diemar every now and then.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #55 - 06/13/05 at 22:00:01
Post Tools
Ah, Patrik, you are not without support. This reminds me: why is Teyko silent? He is responsible for about 40% of the posts in older BDG threads.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sevenviolets
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 176
Location: Brno
Joined: 05/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #54 - 06/13/05 at 14:31:59
Post Tools
Just some possible continuations in 11..Qc8 line:

A) 11.Nc5 Qc8 12.c4 Nb6 13.Qb3 (following lines were suggested to me by Rajmund Emanuel)

a1) 13…g6  14.a4!? Bg7 15.Be3 Bg4 16.Bg2 (16.Rg1!?) 0-0 (16..Bh3 17.Be4 0-0 18.a5 transposes to the main line) 17.a5 Bh3 18.Be4 Nd7 19.Nxb7 Rb8 20.a6 with compensation

a2) 13..Bf5 14.Bg2 e6 15.0-0 Bd6 16.a4!? 0-0 17.a5 with initiative e.g. 17..Nd7 18.Nxb7 Qb8 19.h4 Rc8 20.a6 is ok for white.

B) 11.Nc5 Qc8 12.c4 Nc7 13.Be3 (13.Qb3!? seems also promising) Bg4 14.Qd2 Ne6?!

(14..e6 15.h3! Or even 15.h4!? looks interestingly and there are also many other possibilities like Rg1 and Bg2. The position is quite complicated, white as well as black have many different plans but I think white should be better because of development advantage and more active pieces.. e.g. look at Nc7 knight which has no useful square to be developed or rook a8 which is blocked by Qc8. I think we can assess the position as giving white very good compensation for a pawn. 15..Bf3 16.Bg2 Bxg2 17.Qxg2 Bxc5 18.dxc5 0-0 19.0-0-0 Na6 20.h4!? with attack)

15.Nd3 g6 16.d5 Bf3 17.dxe6 Bxh1 18.0-0-0! with attack
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sevenviolets
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 176
Location: Brno
Joined: 05/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #53 - 06/11/05 at 10:34:49
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 12.Bg2

  Nowadays I´m out of my computer but on Monday evening I´m probably going to send some illustrative analysis of 11..Qc8 line showing ways how white can obtain initiative.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #52 - 06/10/05 at 13:22:34
Post Tools
Quote:
I would be inclined to play 11...Qc8, simply on the principle that one should not seek complications when one is a pawn up with no weaknesses.

Yes, quite possibly a valid point. On the other hand I simply didn't find anything that suggests I shouldn't play 11...Qd6 and somehow I do like that move a bit better than 11...Qc8. And considering that white hardly has a development advantage I probably don't have to worry about complications (quite possibly white should be worried - or so I hope). But as I said 11...Qd6 still keeps a lot of options open and actually the big decisions for me will come on the next move.
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sevenviolets
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 176
Location: Brno
Joined: 05/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #51 - 06/10/05 at 09:27:01
Post Tools
I like these discussions:) Well, I can also uncover my cards in hand a little... I´ve analysed both continuation (11..Qd6 and 11..Qc8) and I cannot decide which one is better because I think there are about equal in value. White has good compensation in both lines Smiley At first sight, Qd6 looks more active and Qc8 looks weird for me (maybe computer´s are trying to cover b7 pawn, but this might not be necessary as there are just very few lines where white can take the pawn). The game starts to be very interesting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #50 - 06/10/05 at 07:40:40
Post Tools
Quote:
I think Black is doing well after 11...Qd6, as long as he follows up with the most active moves (12.Bg2 g6):

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6

12.Bg2 g6! 13.0-0 [13.c4 Nc7 14.0-0 Bg7!] 13...Bg7 14.c4 [14.c3 Bc8] Nb6 15.Nxb7 Qxd4+ 16.Qxd4 [16.Kh1 0-0 17.Bxc6 Bxc4] 16...Bxd4+ 17.Kh1 Rc8

After looking at the position a little more, I think Black should be careful about committing the rook on Rb8, and should play ...g6 and ...Bg7 as quickly as possible.


I would be inclined to play 11...Qc8, simply on the principle that one should not seek complications when one is a pawn up with no weaknesses.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #49 - 06/09/05 at 20:06:15
Post Tools
I think Black is doing well after 11...Qd6, as long as he follows up with the most active moves (12.Bg2 g6):

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6

12.Bg2 g6! 13.0-0 [13.c4 Nc7 14.0-0 Bg7!] 13...Bg7 14.c4 [14.c3 Bc8] Nb6 15.Nxb7 Qxd4+ 16.Qxd4 [16.Kh1 0-0 17.Bxc6 Bxc4] 16...Bxd4+ 17.Kh1 Rc8

After looking at the position a little more, I think Black should be careful about committing the rook on Rb8, and should play ...g6 and ...Bg7 as quickly as possible.
  

Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
X
God Member
*****
Offline


Education is a system
of imposed ignorance.Chomsky

Posts: 571
Joined: 10/04/03
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #48 - 06/09/05 at 19:28:04
Post Tools
11...Qd6 looks good to me also.  I think the ...Qb4+ resource holds black's position together.   If 12.c4, Black can play 12...Nc7, when he will likely follow up with ...Rb8.  After ...g6, ...Bg7, ...O-O, Black may even consider the active possibility of ...b5.  The only drawback I can see is that Black may be vulnerable along the h2-b8 diagonal, so this needs to be checked.  If 11...Qd6, 12.Bg2 Rb8 13.0-0 is one idea for White, intending c4 followed by Bf4.  One resource Black may want to be careful about is Nxb7, followed by Bxc6.  So I'd need to think more about this to say if it's the best move.
  

Power to the People!&&http://www.gravel2008.us/           http://www.nationalinitiative.us/&&Mike Gravel for President 2008
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #47 - 06/09/05 at 16:35:50
Post Tools
Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5


Here I have once more the choice between a more solid move (11...Qc8) and a more active move (11...Qd6). The latter does allow quite some complications, but as far as I can tell so far black doesn't have to worry about that. On the plus side 11...Qd6 allows a great many different options for black while 11...Qc8 does limit black's option slightly. Quite possibly once more both moves are entirely playable, but I'll think about it some more.

Quote:
I agree that 10..Qxd7 is better than 10..Bxd7?! I was thinking about 11.Bg2 for a long time (as in some lines white has real and very strong compensation) but finally I decided it doesn´t give enough. But surprisingly white has good chances after 11..Bg4 and 11..Bh3. But I found some three or four variations where black is better.

Just a sample line: 11.Bg2 Bg4 12.Bf3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nb4 14.0-0 Nc2 15.Qxf7+ Kd8 16.Rb1 Qd5! (but not 16..Qxd4?!+ 17.Nf2 Ne3 18.Bxe3 Qxe3 19.Rbd1+! Kc7 20.Kh1! with dangerous attack e.g. 20..Rc8 21.Rfe1 Qxg5 22.Ne4 Qe5 23.b4!?) 17.Nc5!? here black has to play extremely cautious, but I have found one line where black is better. Of course, there are other possibilities after 13.Qxf3, but this one is an illustration of a case when black will enter complications (and high level of risk) in order to achieve a full point.


In the line you give 12...Bh3 is also interesting in order to keep the white king in the center a bit longer (I mean, is the white bishop actually well placed on f3?!), after all 12...Bxf3 does help white with unravelling his slightly weird position. In the 12...Bxf3 I would not play something like 13...Nb4 over-the-board (maybe in correspondence chess, if I'm really convinced by it).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sevenviolets
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 176
Location: Brno
Joined: 05/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #46 - 06/08/05 at 08:25:09
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5

I agree that 10..Qxd7 is better than 10..Bxd7?! I was thinking about 11.Bg2 for a long time (as in some lines white has real and very strong compensation) but finally I decided it doesn´t give enough. But surprisingly white has good chances after 11..Bg4 and 11..Bh3. But I found some three or four variations where black is better.

Just a sample line: 11.Bg2 Bg4 12.Bf3 Bxf3 13.Qxf3 Nb4 14.0-0 Nc2 15.Qxf7+ Kd8 16.Rb1 Qd5! (but not 16..Qxd4?!+ 17.Nf2 Ne3 18.Bxe3 Qxe3 19.Rbd1+! Kc7 20.Kh1! with dangerous attack e.g. 20..Rc8 21.Rfe1 Qxg5 22.Ne4 Qe5 23.b4!?) 17.Nc5!? here black has to play extremely cautious, but I have found one line where black is better. Of course, there are other possibilities after 13.Qxf3, but this one is an illustration of a case when black will enter complications (and high level of risk) in order to achieve a full point.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #45 - 06/07/05 at 13:50:55
Post Tools
Quote:
It seems black is playing fundamental moves based on a clear plan. If I manage to win the game, it will be difficult to argue against the line. Of course, most of antiBDGeers will be yelling something about 8..Nfd7 putting two exclamation marks behind it but it will leave me unruffled. 

Well, I believe there should be several ways of equalising, e.g. in our current position there was nothing much wrong with 10...Bxd7 (it just seems a bit slow, but that doesn't seem to be much of a problem). However after some analysing about, I personally prefer 10...Qxd7 simply because it is more straightforward and potentially might give me some additional choices.

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #44 - 06/05/05 at 21:31:01
Post Tools
Quote:
After looking at 6...e6 there seem to be a few unclear points that I am not entirely sure about. For example in the variation that Markovich once suggested 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6 9.g5 Nh5 where I at some point suggested that after 10.Bd3 Qxd4 11.Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12.Be4 the move 12...Bb4 would be an improvement, things do not seem all that clear after 13.0-0 now that I've looked a bit more deely at it.


1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 e6 7.g4 Bg6 8.Qf3 c6 9.g5 Nh5 10.Bd3 Qxd4 11.Bxg6 Qxe5+ 12.Be4 Bb4!  13. O-O f5  14. Qxh5+ g6  15. Qf3 (or 15. Qh4 or 15. Qe2) 15...Bxc3  16. bxc3 Qxe4  17. Qxe4 fxe4  18. Rf6 Nd7  19. Rxe6+ Kf7  20. Rxe4 Rhe8 =+.  White has regained his material, but with his compromised pawns, he faces a dreary ending.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Schoupal - Bonsai, 2005, BDG Challenge Match
Reply #43 - 06/05/05 at 21:21:59
Post Tools
Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7

It seems black is playing fundamental moves based on a clear plan. If I manage to win the game, it will be difficult to argue against the line. Of course, most of antiBDGeers will be yelling something about 8..Nfd7 putting two exclamation marks behind it but it will leave me unruffled. 


Since 10. g6 would not have worked, I'm not sure what I would have recommended to White.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo